Lowcountry Weekly Interview

When I got a press release saying that Bernie Schein would be signing his new book If Holden Caulfield Were In My Classroom at Bay Street Trading Co. on Saturday, Sept. 13th, I knew I had to snag him for a Seven-Up interview.

Having read an advanced copy of the book early in the summer, I had questions. A lot more than seven. (Note how I cleverly packed several ideas into each ‘question.’ Pretty crafty, huh?) Bernie’s book had me howling laughing, weeping openly – sometimes on the same page – going “hmmmm?” on plenty of occasions, and suffering writer’s envy with every other paragraph. In other words, it’s a great read! And you don’t have to be a teacher to think so.

As you’ll see in this interview, Bernie’s not much better than I am at keeping things “short but sweet.” He’s got a lot to say, and trust me, you probably haven’t heard it before. So, without further ado, I offer you an expanded “Seven Up,” featuring a very expansive personality!

—Margaret Evans

1) Q – If Holden Caulfield Were In My Classroom is based on your 40 years of experience as an educator, but is structured as if it takes place over one school year. Are the characters based on particular students you taught, or are they fictional composites? In other words, do you expect any of your past students to recognize themselves in these pages?

A – They’re pretty much composites for disguise as much as effect. Some will recognize themselves (particularly those whose stories are represented), at least until they turn into someone else, some may not recognize themselves, and some will think they do who won’t. Many, I think, will partially recognize themselves. The book’s meant to be a celebration of them. So if they see themselves in it, whether or not it’s literally them, all the better; metaphorically, hopefully it’s all of them. Wouldn’t want to leave anyone out.

More importantly, with or without this book, they know who they are, though a few early readers (check Vlaimir Kleyman’s customer review on Amazon.Com) have suggested “If Holden” is a healthy reminder.

2) Q - Explain the significance of the book’s title.

A – Love, says Mozart, is the soul of genius. I selected that as the book’s epigram because that’s what my students, over the years, have taught me. Wisdom, internalized and expressed, is inspired by intimacy, by relationships, by engagement, by the ability to lose yourself in work and play; trust, in other words. And if you can’t trust yourself, you can’t commit, whether to a relationship or a process or an activity.

Holden Caulfield is your typical American teenager because he couldn’t. Why? Because like most teenagers, he’s already suffered every emotion—shame, guilt, humiliation, embarrassment, self-consciousness – most adults have. Life’s ritual social, family, and identity conflicts—from inevitable ones such as social rejection, academic inadequacies and sibling rivalry to more extreme ones such as parental inattentiveness, death, major illness, neglect and abuse—have sadly cost him to some degree his innocence, naturally frightening and threatening him, causing him to raise his guard.

All these, of course, are the classic themes of literature, art and history, jostling for attention in the heart and soul of every child, and they are the sources of inspiration for great work and great lives, once brought out. When they’re brought out, the child is. And when he is, his work and wisdom will knock our socks off.

Holden’s “acting out” all over the place. Like most teenagers, he’s outsmarted himself. He’s failing in school. He shuns potential friends and courts strangers sure to reject him. He’s the virtuoso of the put-down, with the perfect angle on everyone but himself. He’s been hurt. But he became J. D. Salinger, and the end, if you can believe him, he misses all those people he’d rejected, criticized and put down; again, if you believe him.

Unfortunately, I didn’t.

Had he been in my classroom, I would’ve.

3) Q – Your teaching methods are pretty unconventional. Your classroom doubles as a therapist’s office – and sometimes as a courtroom – where all sorts of private matters are discussed openly. You encourage your students to open up about their love lives, their sexual insecurities, their troubled family relationships, etc. How does this facilitate the learning process? Has this personal approach ever resulted in a student’s becoming too attached to you emotionally?

A – I’m not a therapist. I’m a teacher. I am, however, a teacher convinced that teaching, for me at least , is more art than science. The goal of the artist is express the Truth of his feelings, to turn himself inside out to reveal himself, through whatever medium in which he’s working, to the world. That to me is the nature of art. When I can get the kids to discover and express themselves at their most intimate, to express what is most beautiful, profound and honest and funny inside them--through literature, writing, speaking, speeches, argument, drama, athletics, group dynamics, the class government and court system--the result is wisdom, on their parts, that raises the standards of American education far beyond what a multiple choice test, for example, might ever show.

Further, I find it truly bizarre that feelings have become so institutionalized that in order to express those that most matter to us, those most intimate, which sometimes means those we’re most afraid of, we’re expected to go to a doctor, pay him, and express them to him. (He should be paying us!). That’s not natural. That’s unnatural. In my classroom they’re more a part of the natural order of things, as they should be. The result: greater work, greater wisdom, and a closer relationship with their parents, friends and classmates, which every kid, despite appearances and behavior to the contrary, needs and wants above everything else.

Remember, therapy began with literature. By Freud’s own admission, he got it from Sophocles. In my classroom, we go the source: art.

Contrary to what educators would have you believe, genuine emotion, no more easily arrived at than the solution to a complex algebra problem, catapults creativity and intelligence over a thousand classrooms and curricula. When they discover what they feel, they realize what they need and want. Inspired, their work is.

Do students become too attached to me emotionally? No. They feel safe with me, I would certainly hope, and they know I care about them with all my heart, but that just makes them stronger and more independent. That’s always the result of love, of a strong intimate relationship.

4) Q – As a teacher, you are committed to cutting through the layers of posturing and insecurity that keep middle schoolers from doing their best, most inspired work. You’re determined to help them find their authentic selves, and part of your strategy, it seems, is being 100 % authentic yourself. In that pursuit, you sometimes cross a line that would probably get you fired from a public school! For instance, there’s an episode in which one of your female students comes to class wearing a tank top with no bra. Instead of telling her she’s “dressed inappropriately,” you say (in front of the class), “Betsy, your tits are sticking out.” I mostly adored this book, but as the mother of a daughter, I cringed when I read that page. In an ever-coarsening, sex-obsessed culture, do you really think it’s wise to speak that way to these kids who look up to you? Or is “keeping it real” more important than upholding standards of respectful behavior?

A – “Keeping it real”, as you put it, does uphold standards of respectful behavior—she buttoned up. Obviously no one in their right mind would say that to a small child, but Betsy was a lovely, popular, physically mature teenager ostentatiously displaying sexually suggestive and promiscuous behavior for the simple reason that her father had left, and she was bound and determined to Get Him Back. Despite protestations to the contrary, distant or absent fathers are often why many girls dress so skimpily. It’s a tremendous worry, because what they need is love and attention when what they’re inviting is exploitation and rejection, particularly from older high school boys. That’s what teenagers do. They don’t walk up to mom and dad and say, “I need you, I love you. Can you help me?” nor do they say to teacher or counselor or coach, “Hey, I’m screwed up, can you help me?” No, they act out, as Betsy did, insuring without adult intervention, that they’ll get exactly the opposite of what they’re looking for. Can’t you just tell your dad you need and love him? I asked her. Particularly since you know now (which she did by this point) he’ll be responsive (he was naturally worried out of his mind.). “It’s harder,” she said. “Much harder.” So instead, as you saw in the book, she took pills and tried to kill herself.

And you’re worried about language? The language dealt with the symptom, her sexually provocative attire and behavior. Ironically, however, it was once again through language, the language of literature and creative writing, that she finally came to her senses and approached her father truthfully and positively and got from him the love and attention she needed and wanted.

The fighting—the symptom, in other words—has to be stopped before the conflict can be resolved. Using the language kids would use certainly lightened the tension, but I also created an atmosphere in which her behavior, to say nothing of her breasts, were no longer the “elephant in the room”. To have been schoolmarmish and adultish, to have said, for example, “Your attire is inappropriate” would have been like trying to kill an elephant with a peashooter.

Now imagine your daughter say, at 13 or 14, was her classmate, perhaps even her friend. Do you think her friends and classmates were comfortable with Betsy’s behavior? Of course not. It frightened them. It made them feel embarrassed, awkward and self-conscious. Why was Betsy suddenly behaving this way? They worried about her, cared about her, it made them ashamed, some of them. Betsy got to hear from them that she didn’t need to get attention in that way, that they cared about her for who she was. Had your daughter been in the classroom, she would have been able to tell Betsy that. Because my gloriously astute (if not admittedly decadent) language, the language of pre-and-early teens, would have given her – much to her relief, mind you – that permission.

And if you were Betsy, wouldn’t it have gladdened your heart to hear that, to know that despite all that you’re going through, you have friends who truly care about you and love you.

Teaching is seeing through the eyes of kids, and honestly—honestly– caring.

I’m a progressive educator, but seeing the way kids dress nowadays, it makes me long for a dress code. It’s not enough, but it’s a beginning. There are problems out there unaddressed.

5) Q – Paedeia is obviously a very progressive school, and you were afforded a great deal of freedom as a teacher. Still, your methods were unconventional and sometimes borderline shocking. (See last question.) Did you – or the administration – ever have much trouble with displeased parents? How did you handle that?

A – A few here and there. Most of them, however, loved my butt. I got great cigars for Christmas, ones I never could have afforded myself. I really miss those, more than the kids. (That’s a joke.). I truly loved their kids. They knew that. They knew I’d do anything I could for the kids, and that I’d fight for them. Even, in a a few cases, if I had to fight them. By and large, we were close, and I learned a great deal about their kids from them. They were cooperative and helpful and informative. Plus, if you were a parent, and you saw your child becoming so much smarter and skilled and wiser and your relationship with him stronger and closer, wouldn’t you appreciate it?

Freedom certainly gave me an advantage. I’m an example of what teachers can do if the bureaucrats, administrators, and policy makers would vacate the premises. Teachers should be running schools, everything about them, everything related to them. They’re the only educators with their eyes truly on the kids.

My policy was simple: I’d teach any kid, whether they wanted me or not, if the parent did. If the parent didn’t, unless the kids was unusually insistent, their kid was placed in a different class.

6) Q - Pat Conroy says that you’re “a genius,” and the best teacher he’s ever seen. You two have been good friends since high school. How has Conroy influenced you as a writer?

Totally, completely, 100%. He writes what “pushes”, what mysteriously and inexplicably inspires, as I do. But it was Pat who brought that to my consciousness. HE’S the best teacher I’ve ever had. He braves the emotional front, a true original. He’s the personal and artistic embodiment of everything I’ve said in this interview and in my book. From he beginning, he knew, as I did, that deep down, all kids—and all adults if we weren’t so screwed up—are artists. That is a major faith, for a writer and a teacher, in humanity. If teachers should run the schools, artists should run the country. And I should rule the world (that’s a joke too).

7) Q – If you were talking to a young middle school teacher, just starting his career, and could give him but one piece of advice, what would it be?

A – Don’t do it. In most schools and communities, particularly nowadays, the freedom, the respect and the money is sadly not there. Prisons for kids, schools are also prisons for teachers. Instead organize, strike, do whatever you have to do to take over

Then: listen to the kids. Not just to what is said, but to what is avoided. In my experience, the treasure, however well-camouflaged, almost always lay hidden.

Betsy’s treasure lay not in her ostentatious display, but in her need and love for her father, as you’ll see in If Holden Caulfield Were In My Classroom.